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Thread: Can I get some advice on my training split?

  1. #1

    Can I get some advice on my training split?

    I am currently working 8-10 hours a day plus commuting so I have divided my training split into two parts. This plan is basically the merging of several that I have found and combined according to my current fitness level. In the morning, I am working through S.Smith's 6 week 1.5-2.0 mile plan, I go to work, come home, have a snack and depending on how many miles I ran in the am, will either run or bike 2.1 miles to the gym. Once at the gym, I stretch + foam roll, swim workout, stretch, core work, push/pull, work through a modified version of the NSW strength routine (http://www.sealswcc.com/navy-seals-s...x#.T4Mj2dWGVsg - upper body and lower body every other day respectively), bike/run 2.1miles back to apartment. I have tried to structure my training evenings similar to the PST structure where I swim first, PT, then run and have found a huge difference in the tax on my body during the PT and run home when performed after a tough swim workout.

    I have been taking Wednesdays and Sundays off to recover with more foam rolling, stretching, and perhaps a very light jog or bike ride.

    Example day shown below - Upper body NSW strength workout shown

    am - before work
    LSD - run 60 minutes nonstop - personal goal - 7.5 miles (this could be a HIT or interval workout)

    work

    bike 2.1 to gym (Since running mileage is already high'ish for the day. If it were a HIT day, I would jog to the gym for additional mileage)

    light stretch

    swim
    1000yd freestyle hypoxic @100yd intervals
    strokes per breath: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2
    1000yd CSS pyramid (focus on form and body position - minimize # of strokes / lap)
    25, 50, 100...

    stretch + foam roll + snack (fruit + protein)

    core PT - Abs

    NSW Strength workout (goal - 20 reps @ heaviest weight - performed as a circuit x2)
    upright rows - 20x95
    flat bench - 20x175
    db curls - 20x25
    db arnold press - 20x30
    tricep (cable push down) - 26x150
    db pullover (15deg incline) - 20x60
    db lateral raise - 20x25
    cybex bent over row - 20x115
    db flye (15deg incline) - 20x25
    farmers walk - 50 paces x 80lb db
    dips - 25+ to failure (no rest during)
    pushups - max to failure (no rest during)

    rest - 2:00

    upright rows - 20x115
    flat bench - 20x205
    db curls - 20x30
    db arnold press - 20x35
    tricep (cable push down) - 20x170
    db pullover (15deg incline) - 20x60
    db lateral raise - 20x30
    cybex bent over row - 20x135
    db flye (15deg incline) - 20x30
    farmers walk - 50 paces x 100lb db
    dips - 25+ to failure (no rest during)
    pushups - max to failure (no rest during)

    bike 2.1 miles back to apt

    stretch

    eat

    sleep 6+ quality hours

    As my initial PST scores drop and, god (and sweat) willing, I get a shot at an SO contract, I will increase my running mileage to the recommended weekly distance for pre-BUD/s candidates. Right now, I am averaging 10-15miles per week.

    Any thoughts are appreciated. This is a link to the weekly plan: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/45763523/ham...to%20forum.pdf

    Thank you.

  2. #2
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    Re: Can I get some advice on my training split?

    What's tomorrow workout and thursdays? Just curious... Monday's looks great.

  3. #3

    Re: Can I get some advice on my training split?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mavum View Post
    What's tomorrow workout and thursdays? Just curious... Monday's looks great.
    It is essentially the same structure with Wednesdays off. The AM running workouts vary according to the plan as do the evening swim workouts.

    regarding PT/strength
    M - upper body
    Tu - lower body
    W - off
    Th - upper body
    F - lower body
    Sa - upper body
    (following week - perform lower body routine M, Th, Sa. Alternate every other week.)

    It is ambitious but as long as I eat enough and get 6.5 hrs or more of sleep, I generally feel pretty good. I am making gains in the short term, I guess time will tell if I can keep them going over time.

    Thanks.

  4. #4
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    Re: Can I get some advice on my training split?

    What's your PST scores with this workout and how long have you been doing it?


    At first glance, it looks like a lot of training each day. I think you could dense a lot of it into different days and possibly be more effective. If you are seeing good results though and are close to a contract/have one, I would just stay the course if this is working really well.

    First thing is you are doing pretty much everything each day as in running, swimming, lifitng, core, biking. Your going to sacrifice the intensity at which you can work when you are doing all this. In some regard, this is fine, depending on your goals.


    What is the variation of your exercises each day and your rate of progression. So when you swim are you doing different distances and intensities or doing the same swim workout for 1000m a day? Same for running and lifitng?

    In your lifting I noticed that you go up by about 20 lbs in moust exercises between sets. This leads me to believe the first circuit is somewhat easier then the 2nd. I'd recommend finding a middle ground in between so that your pushing maximal effort for both sets. I could be wrong however.

    Also some of your lifts in the upper body could be combined more efficiently by using different exercises. What does your lower body workout look like? I'd also recommend trying to transition to some more barbell exercises. What days do you do pullups as well?

    I'd probably throw out flys and arnold press and put in standing shoulder press with a barbell. Standing shoulder press is also a good to simulate log PT. Everyone likes to do curls, but you can get a good bicep workout by doing rows, pullups, and deadlifts. I'd limit bicep exercises down.

    Try to stay off the cybex machines/any machine if you can. Machines limit your range of motion. If you have an alternative method to do bent over rows with (barbell, db) I would use that instead.


    Again, it depends on your goals and your scores. These are just my opinions.

  5. #5

    Re: Can I get some advice on my training split?

    Quote Originally Posted by nickdich View Post
    What's your PST scores with this workout and how long have you been doing it?
    this specific routine only 3 weeks, but I started out with P90X2 and running about 2 months ago.
    925 (have only been swim training for 3 weeks)
    110
    90
    18
    920

    Quote Originally Posted by nickdich View Post
    At first glance, it looks like a lot of training each day. I think you could dense a lot of it into different days and possibly be more effective. If you are seeing good results though and are close to a contract/have one, I would just stay the course if this is working really well.

    First thing is you are doing pretty much everything each day as in running, swimming, lifitng, core, biking. Your going to sacrifice the intensity at which you can work when you are doing all this. In some regard, this is fine, depending on your goals.

    What is the variation of your exercises each day and your rate of progression. So when you swim are you doing different distances and intensities or doing the same swim workout for 1000m a day? Same for running and lifitng?
    I'm not close enough on the initial PST to push for a contract yet. My numbers have been getting better each time I self test. Regarding doing "everything" each day - you are absolutely right, intensity could be effected. However, the running and swimming programs (http://www.stewsmithptclub.com/6weekrunningplan.pdf) I am working through DO vary in their prescribed workouts from LSD to intervals to HIT. The cycling is really just me biking fast for 2.1 miles which really only takes a few minutes and is the start of my warmup therefore I don't actually count it as part of my official routine. However, if I run the 2.1, I DO count it as part of my routine as running is much more taxing than the cycling. Regarding rate of progression: it varies according to the swim / run program but depending on how I feel or where I am regarding my goals, have been cranking it up beyond what the program prescribes. Regarding lifting: I started out with lighter weight (I'm naturally pretty strong) and focused on 15 reps with good form. I've since increased weight by 25% on some lifts and am focusing on reps in the 20+ range to achieve some endurance. I am planning on my next week dropping reps back to 10-12 but increasing weight even further to focus on strength. I guess you could call it a shortened periodization strength training plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickdich View Post
    In your lifting I noticed that you go up by about 20 lbs in moust exercises between sets. This leads me to believe the first circuit is somewhat easier then the 2nd. I'd recommend finding a middle ground in between so that your pushing maximal effort for both sets. I could be wrong however.
    It always is as there is fresh blood and O2 in the muscle. I could probably go heavier on the first set and will focus on this with tonight's workout. Good observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickdich View Post
    Also some of your lifts in the upper body could be combined more efficiently by using different exercises. What does your lower body workout look like? I'd also recommend trying to transition to some more barbell exercises. What days do you do pullups as well?
    This is true and I've thought about adding power cleans, push presses, and other similar moves to mix it up and crank up the intensity. My typical lower body workout (modified from http://www.sealswcc.com/navy-seals-s...raining.aspx): please note that I vary the order as well as substitute similar type of movement exercises to keep the muscles confused
    walking db lunges
    weighted back extensions
    leg curls
    squat
    deadlift
    leg extension
    leg press
    calf raise
    rev. calf raise
    Performed as two circuits with a 2:00 break inbetween (maybe I shorten the break to 1:00?)

    I do the majority of my pushup work on upper body days and pullups on lower body days

    Quote Originally Posted by nickdich View Post
    I'd probably throw out flys and arnold press and put in standing shoulder press with a barbell. Standing shoulder press is also a good to simulate log PT. Everyone likes to do curls, but you can get a good bicep workout by doing rows, pullups, and deadlifts. I'd limit bicep exercises down.

    Try to stay off the cybex machines/any machine if you can. Machines limit your range of motion. If you have an alternative method to do bent over rows with (barbell, db) I would use that instead.
    True, and I do vary exercises quite a bit and try to focus on moves that use more stabilization/support muscles than those that don't. Having said that, and though this is not a body building/sculpting routine, I have some of those moves (db curls, flyes) in there to support pullups and pushups respectively and I have noticed a difference. Though with as much as I'm doing, it is hard to tell EXACTLY what is helping! Bottom line is that it IS helping and I am aware that I don't want my training to dead end with a short-sighted plan. Solid advice but I specifically like the cybex machine due to the fact that it hits a perfect spot in my mid back that I have a hard time hitting with bent over rows, low pulls, or other back exercises. I have planned on doing bent over rows as part of tonights routine though.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickdich View Post
    Again, it depends on your goals and your scores. These are just my opinions.
    I appreciate your perspective and comments. My scores are ok but definitely need to improve and there is still room for improvement. Being naturally fairly strong, my overall goal is "tightening up" and increasing my overall fitness level while working on some of the more technical aspects of swimming and running. My thought is that if I put in the time, that is quality time, my body will respond.

  6. #6
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    Re: Can I get some advice on my training split?

    Some more general tips I left out:

    When you are lifting always hit the major muscle groups first and then move on to the smaller exercises.

    So an example would be start with the bench, then move to the shoulder press, then the squats, etc. These exercises are the ones that get you the most bang for your buck so it's important to give it your most on these.

    Once you are tuned into a program, you should know about how much you should be progressing. One of the mistakes I often notice (not saying that you are doing it and I'm guilty of it myself sometimes) is that people get locked into to doing something the same for a while. Then one day they feel good or just decided to amp it up. Well the problem is, it's not really an efficient way of making progress.

    Every time you go to workout you should try to put out more than the the previous workout. It's really hard to do that with long circuits since it requires multiple pieces moving and you have to put out over a long period of time. Fortunately, there are a few ways to do this:

    1. Increase/Decrease the reps and increase or decrease the weight (lower reps, more weight) as you suggested and do some form of a cycle, where maybe each week you change the reps in the circuit.
    2. If you want to keep the reps the same. You can focus on increasing the tail end of the circuit until all is improved, then start again:

    ex: say i do a circuit of bench,shoulder press, squat, deadlift for 10 reps. The first week I would be baseline and say I did all of them 10 reps of 100lbs.

    Next time, I would try to do:
    Bench 10x 100
    Shoulder 10x100
    Squat 10x 100
    Deadlift 10x105

    Then next time after:
    Bench 10x100
    Shoulder 10x100
    Squat 10x105
    Deadlift 10X105

    Just increase each one week to week or each time, very slowly until each one is improved then start over.

    3. The last way is to try to decrease the amount of time it takes you to complete the workout. So if you do your circuit in 20 mins. Try to get 19:30. This is probably the hardest method to see gains though.


    As for the stabilization lifts, I'd recommended just doing another variation of a major lift.

    i.e. doing Bench and then Incline bench or wide grip bench
    Squat and then Front Squats or Box Squats
    Wide grip pullups etc.

    My philosophy is that anything that hits your hard is good. Anything that works multiple muscle groups at one time is better than something that isolates. This allows for maximum efficiency in training and doing twice the amount of work in half the time.

    As for muscle confusion, any time you are increasing the intensity or duration of your exercise your muscles will get confused. Variety is very good as it helps make training fun, but make sure their is an order to your variety so you can keep track of the progress. I personally use a 5 week cycle in lifting where I decrease the reps each week and increase the weight. This allows me to work on strength and endurance and limits my body's ability to adapt to one aspect, even though i do not vary my lifting workouts week to week.

    Overall, I think you have a good grasp, and if you are happy with your program than it's all about pushing yourself harder each day and sticking to it.


    How long do you think you train a day just out of curiosity?

  7. #7
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    Re: Can I get some advice on my training split?

    Nickdich, do you mind posting an example of your cycle as an example? It would help me personally to visualize what you're doing with your workouts.

  8. #8
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    Re: Can I get some advice on my training split?

    Sure

    My goal with this program is to maintain and improve the strength I've built up over the years of following a strength and conditioning program for wrestling/football.

    It does not necessarily follow the PTG with the recommended rep range, but it's easily scalable. I personally feel my strength will be a strongpoint, and I want to keep that up as long as possible, while also increasing my endurance. So far it has worked out pretty well as I'm still improving strength wise, while my runs and swims have been getting longer and faster. So this may not necessarily work for you depending on your goals, but it's a general enough program that it will work for anyone.


    Progression cycle:
    Week 1: 3x10
    Week 2: 10,8,6
    Week 3: 3x5
    Week 4: 3x3
    Week 5: 1RM

    Each set is to be done for max effort. There is no percentage increase in each set. I found this to be the biggest flaw of some programs that say do 60% of 1RM for the first set, 65% for the second, 70% for the third. I prefer to do the most weight that allows me to hit the certain amount of reps. Any auxillary exercises I used I'll usually do 3x10 (these are usually DB exercises) Usually each set will be the same amount of weight, with only an increase of 5 lbs added to the tail end, except for week 2. The 1RM week consists of 2 light warmup sets and a hit or miss 1RM. I will go for more reps if I can, but usually its 1 or fail. If I fail and really close, I may try again, but usually I just move on. This is a pretty light week.

    This is more strength oriented, but you can scale it to focus on more endurance. As I said before, I'm sacrificing some gains in endurance right now to maintain/improve strength while I can. You could do something like this:

    Week 1: 3x12
    Week 2: 3x10
    Week 3: 3x8
    Week 4: 3x6
    Week 5: 3x12

    As long as you are changing the intensity it will work. Once you cycle back around, you will find it's very taxing, but this keeps your body guessing.

    The key to this is dialing in the weights and making sure each set is max effort. If you do not tax your system past it's limits it will stagnate and adapt. Why waste time doing 2 easier sets and 1 hard one? Do 3.

    This means when you put weight on the bar do not do something like this:

    1set : 135
    2nd set : 185
    3rd set : 205

    A 20lb increase means your only reallying going past normal on the last one. You could instead do something like this:

    1set : 200
    2nd set : 200
    3rd set : 200

    Not as much as before in the last set, but overall you are pushing yourself harder. To progress then you would add weight to the tail end the next time you cycle around

    Set 1: 200, Set 2: 200, Set 3: 205 then the next cycle Set 1: 200 Set 2: 205 Set 3: 205 and so on....

  9. #9
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    Re: Can I get some advice on my training split?

    One more rediculously long post:


    Here's my weekly split. I'm currently working right now, once I finish up with work I will add in add in some extra running and swimming in the mornings and afternoons.

    Current mock PST scores: 9:05/95/105/23/9:27

    Monday - Lifting
    Bench
    Wide grip bench
    Push press
    Squat
    Front squat
    21s (bicep exercise) - (3 sets of 21)
    Tricep press/pullover -
    Weighted pullups
    Seated calves (3 sets of 10 regular, 10 toes in, 10 toes out)

    Pushups - X in as few sets as possible
    Pullups - X in as few sets as possible


    Wednesday:
    Deadlift
    Hang clean
    Snatch
    DB Swings (gym doesnt have KB)
    Lateral Raises
    Good Morning
    Bent over rows
    Cable suplex

    Friday:
    Bench
    Incline bench
    Push press/push jerk
    Box squat
    Jump lunges
    Bicep exercise
    Weighted pullups
    Weighted dips
    Standing calves

    Pushups - X in as few sets
    Pullups - X in as few sets


    Tuesdays:
    AB/Core
    break
    500m swim for time
    10 min break
    1.5 mile run for time
    Cool down run

    Soon I will be doing the run swim/workout 2x on tuesdays once I have time. I would count this as my CHI day on the PTG.

    Thursday:
    Abs/core
    -5 min break
    Plyometrics workout
    INT work. Some days I do 1/4 repeats, somedays 100m sprints, somedays a mix of both
    LSD swim with fins

    Saturday:
    INT Swims

    Sunday:
    AB/core work
    LSD Run



    This is a general idea of what I do. I train for about 1hr to 1.5 hrs each day. Saturdays are light. I stretch daily.

    The x number for the pushups and pullups is dependent on the amount of reps I do. I generally aim for 150 and work up to 200 pushups in as few sets as possible. Pullups is 30 to 60 in as few sets.


    Been working well so far. I'm at about 20 miles a week running wise now and I will be adding in more LSD runs and swims on the lifting days once my schedule allows for 2-a-days..

  10. #10
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    Re: Can I get some advice on my training split?

    Thanks nickdich, extremely helpful to see it mapped out like that. I've been looking for a new strength plan, because what I am doing now doesn't appear to be working particularly well, so I may start doing this over the summer and see how I like it. Thanks for taking the time to type it all out for me.

    John
    "Sure I am this day we are masters of our fate, that the task which has been set before us is not above our strength; that its pangs and toils are not beyond our endurance. As long as we have faith in our own cause and an unconquerable will to win, victory will not be denied us."

    -Winston Churchill-

    EASY DAY
    -John Bailey-

  11. #11

    Re: Can I get some advice on my training split?

    Quote Originally Posted by nickdich View Post
    How long do you think you train a day just out of curiosity?
    Thanks again for your tips. I'm happy with it thus far but will need to rework it within another two weeks or so.

    Honestly, it really varies. For instance my schedule Monday had me run for 1hr nonstop (which I did in the am) then in the evening I swam for just over an hour (including short breaks) then I did PT and lifted so all-in all, that day was probably about 3 hours of active effort executing the plan but that was a pretty long day with both a long run and swim workout. My workout yesterday was the Recovery and Mobility P90X2 dvd + additional stretching and foam rolling which still came to less than 1hr 20min.

    My workout today is shorter:
    mile repeats: repeat 4x
    run mile
    walk 1/4 mile

    swim:
    CSS intervals (still trying to nail technique and turns)
    25, 50, 100, 100, 100yd
    hypoxic freestyle pyramid - 1000yd @ 100yd each
    2, 4, ... 10, 10,... 2

    Core PT and lifting together usually takes 35-50 minutes depending on how I'm feeling that day. If I need to, I'll go longer and add exercises but I try to keep it my current lifting circuit brief and intense as possible resting only to change weights, or 15-30 seconds max.

    In summary, and unless I go for a long bike ride, my total workout time is under 3 hours. If my current project office had a gym, I'd add a quick midday workout too. I'm addicted!

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