CLOSE COMBAT AND MMA: A SEALS STORY

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Intro

Life is about constant evolution. Always better today than we were yesterday.

Scott Williams

Welcome to 'The Only Easy Day Was Yesterday'. I'm your host, Scott Williams. And today, we have Navy SEAL and MMA pro fighter, Bobby Winther. Welcome.

Bobby Winther

Hey, thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Scott Williams

Bobby, they tell me that your fighting name is 'The Ghost'. Can you explain a little bit about that, before we get into all your background and everything?

Bobby Winther

Absolutely. I wish the story was cooler than it actually is. But I have a tattoo on my arm. The character, it's from a video game called The Ghost of Tsushima, which is like a samurai that pretty much has to abandon or has to go against the samurai code in order to beat the Mongols that are invading his territory. So he can't, he has to kind of like sneak behind the scenes a little bit to defeat the enemy rather than just like fight them outright. And he kind of had a lot of riff between the actual samurai that he was with, and then just kind of the people he was rebelling against too. So, the reason why I picked that as a nickname for me is because like a warrior you're gonna have to do what it takes to win sometimes. And like SEALs, we’re all about being sneaky and being behind the scenes. So then I kind of thought it fit really well on that. And also, I thought the game was pretty cool, too.

Scott Williams

Yeah, well, then I guess there's some themes there about resilience and adaptability, which is something that we talk a lot about here at NSW is the ability for operators to naturally adapt in their environment, overcome obstacles, and keep moving despite challenges. And you probably see that a lot in just training for MMA, right?

Bobby Winther

Oh, all the time. Yeah, like, for mixed martial arts, it's the most fundamental form of warfare I like to explain. It's one-on-one, no weapons, just our hands, just whatever ruleset we're going by. And you're constantly met with different skills that pose different problems to you. So, if someone's really good at defending wrestling, and that's your best skill, well, you got to figure out a way to make that work for you inside the fight. I always say it's the most fundamental form because as you get to, like, actual warfare within like, the platoons, you have teams, you have weapons now, and you have a lot more assets, which is a lot more things to control. But the idea and the concept of warfare still remains the same, they may have something that deters you from moving to a specific area. So, you have to answer that in a different way. Whether that be with like, aircraft, whether that be with a different fire team. So that's kind of as far as the resilience and adaptability, it's constantly going. And I feel like MMA is such a great way to practice that daily.

Scott Williams

Your role here at Naval Special Warfare is a combatives instructor at our Advanced Training Command, which is attached to this center here. So, you're applying lessons that you learn in MMA to the curriculum?

Bobby Winther

Correct. Yes, so I've been doing the sport for quite some time now. And I started jiu-jitsu about like 12 years ago, and then slowly picked up wrestling and striking and then full-on mixed martial arts, like competition-wise about three years ago. And when I got to the command, I had extensive knowledge of the sport aspect. And I didn't have any real-world experience for the tactical side of things. So, the shop I was with, fortunately, had a lot of guys who had a lot of hands-on experience within Iraq and Afghanistan. And all of us put our minds together and threw things at the wall to see what stuck. If there was a tactical situation, we thought about how we use combatives to deal with it. I would use this technique, that technique, that technique, and then they can be like, well, that doesn't make sense because of the team-based environment or because we may be putting our bodies into a bad position. So now it kind of made us like work and adapt the combatives to whatever that tactical situation was.

Scott Williams

In a tactical situation where you're doing effectively urban combat, you're in close quarters, it's room to room. We have seen plenty of examples in the past where SEALs have had to come into direct contact with the enemy, sometimes closer than pistol range, right, like in your face kind of close and had to actually lay hands on the enemy. So, this is where your training comes in as a combatives instructor, is what happens when you get face-to-face with the enemy.

Bobby Winther

Absolutely part of my job is when you do get face to face with the enemy is for it to almost be like autopilot like to be that instinct reaction like making sure you're doing the fundamentals, fundamentals of fighting instinctually that keep you and your teammates safe. The more you practice it, the more it becomes an instinct. And then you can start actually thinking while you're doing the thing, rather than being so overwhelmed when that that problem happens and then being like, oh, gosh, what do I do? What do I do? do? No, you already know what you do, then now we can think okay, here's the situation being presented to me, let me use XY and Z tactics to finish the job or subdue the suspect.

Scott Williams

Let's talk a little bit about MMA. Right? So you have a professional career. What is your record right now?

Bobby Winther

Currently, it's 1-0. Hopefully, by the time this podcast comes out, it's gonna be 2-0. I fight this Friday.

Scott Williams

Wow that's awesome, and it's a cage match?

Bobby Winther

Pretty much the easiest way to explain it is like whatever you see on UFC on the TV, that type of cage is what I'll be fighting in.

Scott Williams

I see. So, when we talk about the definition of Mixed Martial Arts, how does that translate into SEAL training as well? A lot of guys will ask, hey, what kind of fighting styles do they study or do SEALs use?

Bobby Winther

So now we will use a primarily grappling-heavy system. So, what that means is a lot of if you watch MMA, there'll be a lot of like striking into takedowns. And there is that striking, striking meaning like boxing or kickboxing, there'll be that to bridge the gap into the grappling. Because we have weapons. Generally that like long distance area is generally controlled with a weapon. So, we don't see as much striking not that we don't see any. We definitely have times where we throw strikes. But most of what we teach in combatives is now a grappling-heavy system. So that way that means like wrestling, wall grappling. That's why MMA is such a great tool to use for our operators because they have a vertical surface behind them, which no other sports have that that's a prop that's a relatively newer martial art, and a new problem set for martial artists to deal with. And for us, because the most likely scenario we'd get into that would be in an enclosed area, like a room. The walls are everywhere. So we need to be able to adapt to that. Kind of to answer your question, a grappling-heavy approach with aspects of striking within the grappling there.

Scott Williams

Okay. So we're talking something that might resemble Brazilian Jujitsu, Krav Maga. Things like that.

Bobby Winther

Yeah, aspects of these can all be considered mixed martial arts. So I think for us it is like American style wrestling, Jujitsu, and then some basic boxing and stuff we don't as far as like, within the actual operators like arsenal of things we want to teach them we don't teach them a ton of like kickboxing kicks, we may maybe teach one like push kick, but it's either that elbows, punches, and then knees up and close. Those are the only striking applications we really use from like the Muay Thai and kickboxing arts.

Scott Williams

Yeah. Sounds like some elements of Muay Thai.

Bobby Winther

Yeah, for sure. There's a lot in there for sure.

Scott Williams

That's short range, right?

Bobby Winther

Oh, yeah. Really short, right.

Scott Williams

You end up against a wall or your guy ends up pinned against a wall if you're that close.

Bobby Winther

Exactly, yeah, it's like if we're that close and this is why mixed martial arts is such a cool sport and unique in that, in that sense, is that you can strike within the clinch you can strike on the ground, which can't in wrestling. So, it's like you get to see like, oh, this is how you use the short-range weapons. This is how you get to like to employ these things. And when we're teaching down at the base, we use all those weapons, but we also recognize that we have weapons of our own that we can use or can employ. So, figuring out hey, what is the range of each weapon that I'm using on my body and then of my like, actual tools that I have too.

Scott Williams

So, it's like a John Wick movie.

Bobby Winther

Actually, the best way to think about it, I think John Wick crushes it, obviously you know, John Wick is like a little over the top, but I wish we could all get there that'd be awesome if we could all be like John Wick that would be so sick.

Scott Williams

How did all this begin for you? How did you become interested in being a Navy SEAL?

Bobby Winther

So, how I got interested is that my brother joined the Marine Corps. And he joined when he was 17. And even way before he joined, I kind of always felt drawn to the military. And I don't quite understand why I just kind of was like I like it. I think that's a respectable thing.

Scott Williams

Its a calling.

Bobby Winther

Yeah, exactly. So I kind of like always had that inkling that that's the route I wanted to go. I just didn't know how I was going to get there. So my brother joined. And then I was always interested in like, the medical side of things. Like I always thought it was cool to be like, on the op, and then like, if someone went down, they were like, hey, we need you. And I was like that guy, like the medic. So, I thought, okay, my brother's a Marine, I'd like to be a Marine, but I want to do the medic thing. So, you can only be a corpsman for that. So, you had to be in the Navy. So, I started looking into the Navy. I think I typed it in online. I typed in Navy. And then like the auto populate was like SEALs. And I've heard of SEALs, but I didn't know what they were. I was like, well, let's look at all the options to make sure and then I click the click the button. It took me right to the sealswcc.com website. And I remember seeing all these like videos, and I just dove deep on the website, because they had like a guy jumping out of a plane. I was like, whoa, these people jump out of planes and they're in the Navy. This is wild. So, I like kept going down. I was like, oh that's cool. I was like they're shooting guns and moving around, like the land warfare aspect. I was like that seems like what Marines do too. So, I was like, okay, and my like 13–14-year-old brain is like telling me all this.

Scott Williams

Wait what website was this on?

Bobby Winther

The sealswcc.com website.

Scott Williams

Oh, that sounds really familiar, doesn't it?

Bobby Winther

Absolutely.

Scott Williams

Shameless plug. Okay. Go ahead with your story.

Bobby Winther

So, as I was like diving deep in the website, I was like, I just kind of was like, I think I can do this. I think I can do it. I want to do it. And I sat on it for like a while. And I think every day, I think I thought about it every day for like a year. And then every day after that, I was like, I can't wait to do it. So when I was 14, after seeing the website, I was like, alright, yeah, this is cool. I'm getting in. And that's what I want to do. I'll also my deciding factor for it was I saw you could be a medic within the SEALs. So like, you could be a seal and then you can be a medic. So that crossed off my boxes. And I was like, sign me up I'm in. So I looked at what it what it took to be a SEAL. Like what the criteria was, and you could be 17 if you wanted to, as long as the parents signed you. And you pass the PST. And I was like, vool, what's the PST and it was the 500 yard swim, the push ups, sit ups, pull ups and that run. So I was like, cool. This is what I got to do to be a SEAL. Let me just get really good at these things. So I think that tests is like on there, like how they run the test. So I was like, Okay, let me just run myself through the tests. And then keep doing that until I get better at them.

Scott Williams

You used the PST calculator?

Bobby Winther -

Yeah, so like, once I did it, I saw that they had this PST calculator. So I threw all my numbers on there. And compared my results to people who had already taken the tests or people who were already going through training, and it would rank you out on that. And then so I was like, okay, I better be in the top 10, eventually. That was the goal for me. And I don't remember what I started out with. And I'll remember what I ended with. But I remember just like, okay, let me just like, keep doing this until it's like, acceptable. And it was super, super cool. I was like, I was like dang. I'm like, I was like I can compete with some of the people that are going through BUD/S right now. And I was like, that was just a cool thing for me. I thought it was awesome. So it was like tangible and like I could see the results that I was putting in and that was getting closer to my goal. So it didn't seem so impossible to me.

Scott Williams

What part of the country were you in at the time?

Bobby Winther

Philadelphia

Scott Williams

Okay, and then you got hooked up with a NSW mentor or recruiter, or how did that whole accession part?

Bobby Winther

Yes. So, when I was 17 I hit up a recruiter and I told him, I wanted to be SEAL and didn't want to be anything else. And he's like, okay, cool. Take the PST and then once I took the PST with a mentor out there, his name is Chief Black. He might still be a mentor out there. And I took the PST through him. The first one I took ended up getting picked up on and then I had my contract going right away. I was a senior in high school and by the time I graduated, I would just leave for boot camp like a month after that.

Scott Williams

Training for the PST. That's got to be tough. I mean, sure it sounds easy. You've got push-ups, you got sit-ups, you got pull-ups which are not easy for everybody. You got the run. Some people have a problem with that. What about swimming? Are you a swimmer?

Bobby Winther

At 14, I had no formal swimming training other than just learning how to do it in a pool. So, when I decided I wanted to be a SEAL I was like, well, I don't know what the sidestroke is, and I don't know how to be fast at it. So let me join my swim team and just get good at swimming because I'm probably going to need that. Once I did that, I got a lot better at swimming, and my times for the PSTs went way down, which, down is a good thing in swimming. So, it went way down. So, my times are doing a lot better. And then I kind of supplemented that training by just doing push-ups, pull-ups, and sit-ups on my own and running on my own a lot. I kind of ran to a lot of different practices. And at the same time I did jujitsu because I was like, well, I got to learn how to fight if I'm going to be a SEAL. So, I was like, let me learn how to swim. Let me learn how to fight, and then I'll supplement the rest. I'll figure out where it goes.

Scott Williams

Swim training. So, you got on the swim team, but they don't do the combat side stroke on the swim team. So how did you learn the combat side stroke?

Bobby Winther

Yeah, so they do freestyle. And then we do all the strokes, but I was primarily a breaststroker, which is probably the most translatable to sidestroke. And then I just asked my coach, I was like, how do I do this? Like, here is how to do the thing and they taught me how to do it. And then I did a lot of research on my own, some videos on sealswcc.com had how to do the combat side stroke. So, I did those, or I looked at those. And I was like, alright, let me try to do these. And if I couldn't figure it out, I just showed it to my coach. I was like, how do I do that? Like, I don't know. So, they helped me figure it out. And it was awesome. On a side note, swimming is something I highly recommend people do. Not just because it's a good skill to have, it is hard. It is not easy. And prior to BUD/S, I kind of think it gives you a good edge on trying to be as comfortable as you can being super uncomfortable. Which is the water.

Scott Williams

Yeah. Well, it's probably a whole different thing to do the sidestroke in a pool then do it out there in the ocean surf. Right?

Bobby Winther

Completely different. Yeah, like it's wild. As I remember, once I did the PSTs, I was doing well. I was like how does anyone fail this and then I did in the ocean. I was like swimming in like zigzags. Because you have to look up and guide yourself because you don't have a line at the bottom to show you where to go. It's actually a lot harder than you think in the ocean.

Scott Williams

Yeah, not to mention saltwater, current, cold and breeze. The Pacific is cool. People don't realize that.

Bobby Winther

San Diego seems like you're like oh it's in San Diego it's gonna be really nice. Since I moved back out here, I don't think I've been in the water since because I'm scarred.

Scott Williams

Wow. Well, that's great. So, you were able to pick up those skills by looking at a resource on some website called sealswcc.com. Go figure. And you didn't have a problem with the run?

Bobby Winther

No, I played soccer my whole life. So, I was always running. So, I just never really timed myself until I got serious about training. I think I just kind of looked at like different regimens on, like how to get good, which I I think was again on the website, it either gave you resources to go like look at, hey, if you want to get good at running, or like want to figure out a plan, like maybe look at some of these videos or maybe looking to this person. And then as I did my own research outside of that, too. I was like, okay, there's running programs that can get you here or especially, I think now there's a lot of books out for like BUDS training in specific. So that's awesome. I'm glad those things are out there.

Scott Williams

So, you got through boot camp, and you went to prep school?

Bobby Winther

Yes, sir in Great Lakes.

Scott Williams

Yep. And then came down here to BUD/S. What was that first BUD/S experience like for you?

Bobby Winther

It was cool. I started with class 311. And I remember the last class went through, they went through like in the wintertime, so I guess it was almost I guess around the December timeframe. And I went through in February for Hell Week. And I remember just we heard all the horror stories everyone's like they got decimated. A lot of people got sick. A lot of people got rolled. A lot of people got dropped. A lot of people quit. And the mass hysteria was starting to build and you're like, oh God, like, why are they all quitting? Like why? Is it that bad? Like, holy cow, and then you finally get the BUD/S and I'm like it's just a PST right, like, I mean, didn't people practice this before they went. I've seen the BUD/S documentaries that they did boats and logs and this and the surf torture, but I didn't realize that was the thing that made people quit, and, in those videos, they don't show how much you do them. So, I was like the PST is the hard part, as long as I pass that I'm good. And then I got here and people like no, dude, it's boats and logs. What do you mean? Don't we do that a couple of times? And they were like dude the whole time. I was like, oh, dang, that's not gonna be that cool. So, I was like, well, hell we're here now we might as well just do it. So, it was such a cool experience. But it was hard. And being the youngest kid in my class, me and a couple of the guys were like, 18 when we came to BUD/S. So, it was cool to like, have like the younger crew, because everyone's always counting you out as like the young guy. And so it was, for me, it was almost like he always had a chip on your shoulder being a young guy, you were like, no one's gonna be right that I quit. Like, no one's gonna be like, oh, we expected him to quit. I was never gonna fulfill someone's prophecy like that. Like for me, it was gonna be like, I'm getting through. I said, since I was 14, I'm gonna get through. I'm doing it right now. So, for me, it was really hard. Every single day. It was the hardest thing I've ever done.

Scott Williams

Did you ever have that moment of clarity? Where you were kind of like did, I do the right thing here?

Bobby Winther

After Hell Week. Yeah, after Hell Week because you're so driven. And you're like, just thinking of one evolution at a time, one evolution at a time. And then you get through Hell Week, and it's just such an intense experience. it's very, it's traumatic, almost. And you're kind of like, at the end of it. You're like, did I do the right thing? Did I put myself through like, all this stuff? Years in my mind of like training for this? And is it worth it? Was it worth it? And like, obviously, there's times like, is it worth it? And you had to sit there and think about it. And that question got answered for me every day after Hell Week. I was like cool yeah, this is this is still worth it to me. This is still worth it to me. Got through SQT, went to the medic school. I was able to get through that. This is worth it. I'm hitting the goal got to the platoon. We did the workup. We did everything. And once you're at the platoon and you do your workup, it's just like, it is the coolest thing ever. Dude, I'm doing the things in the video I saw. I was like, this is so cool of it. So, it was worth it. There was that mental clarity. They put my body through a lot. And I can definitely attest that it is.

Scott Williams

Yeah. Were you on the West Coast team or East Coast team?

Bobby Winther

I was East Coast team. So, I did two deployments over at four and I did both of them to Europe.

Scott Williams

Nice. Let me backtrack a little bit to the Special Operations Tactical Medic training because we do have a lot of guys who were interested and thought the same thing as you. Yeah, I'd like to be a SEAL and I'd like to be a medic. Is there such an animal? Yes, there is. Tell us about it.

Bobby Winther

Yeah. So, at the end SQT, you're kind of sorting out orders and they're like always slotting to get medics so if you desire to be a medic, you put in for it like your dream sheet and I want to do it. So right after SQT is when they would send you the medic school. Most guys go straight to their team and then they get their schools after that. Medics different because it's such a long school. And at the time of me going through, we were still sending SEALs over to the Army course so Special Operations Combat Medics course over in Fort Bragg. So, we spent like 10 months to a year with the Army out there. And that was a really cool course. But a lot of my friends that I joined that we did like the medic course with, they ended up whenever they took shore duties, the Navy or NSW stood up their own medical course. So, it's called SOTM. So, a lot of the guys that I went through in the army course they're over there standing up that schoolhouse and like teaching it and they've really revamped the curriculum, like a lot.

Scott Williams

It's a lot shorter, right?

Bobby Winther

It's a lot shorter, but it's also like the quality didn't go away. I think when they initially made the course it was kind of like, is it going to be as good. They don't want the quality to surrender, but they also want it faster. So, I think in the beginning in its growing stages, it was like the quality wasn't what they wanted. But as it's just evolved, that course has just gotten so much better. And it's on par with what the Army has, if not better, like I think they make quality medics faster.

Scott Williams

Tell me a little bit about that. That SOTM course. If I wanted to be a medic, what exactly does that mean? What am I going to do? What am I going to learn to do in this SOTM course?

Bobby Winther -

Yeah, so this is cool. It is such a really cool thing to talk about. Because you are learning to be that guy that when things are at like the heightened stress period, like not even just the op, like when things are going really wrong on the operation like they're expecting you to know and save your buddy. And it's going to be your friend, like you've worked with this guy, or probably might be people you're working with, or have been working with a couple of months. So to be the medic, they're constantly stressing that throughout the training it is like get all this right, because this is going to be somebody you know sometimes, so don't overlook it. And they give you this realistic feel of being able to like train in real life, like not real-life scenarios, but they make the scenarios very realistic. So that way you get the most out of the training. And by the end of it, you feel like you can help your buddy. You feel super confident that you can do it. Whereas like when you first start, they're like you're gonna have to save your buddy and you're like, I don't know anything. Don't count on me yet. And pretty much by the end of it, you're like, yeah, absolutely. I feel very confident that I can do that.

Scott Williams

So, we're probably not talking about open heart surgery, but triage medicine.

Bobby Winther

Absolutely. So as far as medics are concerned, I think the best comparison is a paramedic with just a little bit broader scope of practice for the skills, meaning like, okay, initially somebody gets hit, and you have to triage the patient. So, you have to win the firefight, then you have to get your buddy out of there, then you have to stop whatever's happening. Like whether that's a massive hemorrhage, whether that's an airway obstruction, and then run through your entire algorithm that they run you extensively through. And from there, you're just each patient so different. So, you're constantly like, always trying to level that person up to get them to a higher level of care. So just like you kind of just said, it's triaging, like, okay, if we have multiple of these people who needs to go first, if there's only a limited amount of assets,

Scott Williams

Right. So, you take care of the immediate problem. Stop the bleeding, for instance, sucking chest wounds, whatever. Get them stabilized. And then ready for evac.

Bobby Winther

Correct. Yeah.

Scott Williams

That's pretty much it.

Bobby Winther

Yeah, exactly.

Scott Williams

That sounds really simple. It's not. Yeah, it's pretty hairy, you know, you're under fire or you got, you know, adrenaline rush the whole thing. But that is the difference between life and death. I think for most of the guys who have been hit pretty hard. That can mean all the difference, right?

Bobby Winther

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's that prehospital care, and all the doctors in the hospital really harp on it. And that's why you see a lot of hospitals being so invested in the prehospital setting. So because a lot of like that initial how the patient is going to do later really depends on how they are responding in the beginning, or how they're being treated in the beginning to like, if you give them a treatment that's not warranted, you could hurt this patient even more and cause more of a problem. So, it's that prehospital care is just so important.

Scott Williams

So, you have a couple of really exciting aspects to your SEAL training. You've gone through the whole pipeline here at Center for the training pathway for SEALs and BUD/S. That's quite an experience all by itself and then you have SQT. And then you have the tactical medicine training, so you checked off the original block right there about being a medic, combat medic, then you're assigned to a team, you got your pumps out to the theater, you come back and then you got into ATC for combatives training for Combatives Instructor. How did that happen?

Bobby Winther

So, while I was over at Team Four, we have kind of different phases of the cycle. But one of those phases is professional development just means they send you to schools that will as an individual operator enhance your abilities as an operator. So, one of those schools is Combatives Instructor Course which I have always done martial arts since I was 14. So, when I had the opportunity to go to this course. It was a month long out here in San Diego and it was just all the things I was already doing as my hobby just for work for a month. So, I got to come out here, and once I completed the course I was the Combatives Instructor for my platoon.

Scott Williams

We get that question a lot from people. Do you get to pick those schools or does the team pick them for you?

Bobby Winther

It's a little bit of both. So, when you're new into the platoon, you're always putting even as like an older guy, you're still always going to be putting like your dream, like your wishlist down. You're like, hey, I would, let's say it was being a sniper. Like as a new guy, I want to be a sniper. They're like, okay, cool. That's a very big qualification that has a lot of responsibility. Maybe the Chief is going to reserve that spot for someone with more experience, but here's some other courses. We have like specific requirements for each platoon that need to be filled. Let's go ahead and like, hey, you take these courses. And if you take and if you're the guy that when you come to the platoon, you're like, hey, I'll do whatever course you need me to do. I prefer if it was something that got me towards being the sniper that I want to be, or being the breacher, being the medic, if it was the courses that could get me there, that'd be awesome. But ultimately like I'm here for the platoon. Like that, that's what every Chief and OIC and everyone in their platoon wants to hear, especially if I'm a new guy. That's really what it is. So, like it's a little bit of both, you can request and sometimes requests will get filled, but there are other schools that are, hey, we got to send somebody to this. You're like, all right, cool I'm there.

Scott Williams

We need a comms guy. You're the guy.

Bobby Winther

Yeah. Most people aren't really wanting to go to the comms right away, but then they're like, all right, well, we need somebody to do it. You're like, okay, cool. I'll do it.

Scott Williams

Leads to JTAC and who knows?

Bobby Winther

Exactly. Yeah.

Scott Williams

So, let's go back to the nitty gritty stuff here. The MMA. So, you got into professional MMA where you're actually part of a circuit.

Bobby Winther

Yes.

Scott Williams

So, tell me a little bit more about that.

Bobby Winther

So, once I got to be a combatives instructor out here, I started doing some amateur fights in the area. So, I was fighting for one of the local promotions around here. Uh, just trying to get my experience together. And I was competing a lot in Nogi grappling, which is just pretty much submission wrestling. So, I was staying pretty active on the scene with all of that. And then a European promotion that decided to pretty much set their roots in America for like the first time, set it in San Diego. And fortunately for me, that was right around when I wanted to go pro and when I was kind of done being in the amateur circuit. So, the organization is called Cage Warriors. If you've heard of Conor McGregor, it's the league he came out of before he went to the UFC. So, it's a very well-established league and Conor McGregor is the most famous for that, but like, there's been tons of fighters that go into the UFC after this one. Back in June, I was supposed to make my professional debut on there. The last couple of days, my opponent ended up having to pull out due to an illness. So, I had to wait until September to do that. And then I had my first fight in December, like professional fight in December. I ended up winning by TKO in the second round.

Scott Williams

Wow.

Bobby Winther

And so, the next one's right here on the horizon, probably by the time folks hear this, it'll be over.

Scott Williams

Yeah. Uh, but that'll be match number two professionally for you. And then kind of moving forward from there. Somebody might ask, well, how do you do this and do a Navy SEAL career at the same time?

Bobby Winther

It has to be at a shore command to have the dedication to be a professional in a sport, but also to be a professional in your job. You have to be in a spot where you, like what I mean is l, if I'm in a platoon, I wouldn't be able to do this because I would need to be there for the platoon and it wouldn't be fair for them if I was fighting. And that's ultimately what you need to be. So being at combatives where I can go teach the skills that I'm learning, allows me l the training schedule that I can get to train, to be a professional fighter. To answer your question shortly, the Navy has to be supportive of it. And it's been the fact that they're so supportive is why I'm able to do these things. And, I'm just super grateful for it too.

Scott Williams

I would suspect the Navy sees that they might be getting something out of that too, because of the experience of you know, matches in MMA, there's techniques perhaps that you can bring over to the curriculum and add to that.

Bobby Winther

Yeah. And, you know, and that's kind of how I think of it too. And I hope everyone sees it, especially as the rotation of commands comes. I hope that's how they see it. I always sometimes feel guilty because it's like, this is like the thing I love doing. I love fighting and I love being a SEAL. So, it was like, I got to be at a job where I could do both of those things. So, for me, it's just kind of like, it's always like a little bit of a guilty feeling where I'm like, I'm doing the things I love. This doesn't feel like a job to me.

Scott Williams

So, what's next for you? And we know you have this match coming up in a couple of days, but the outlook beyond that.

Bobby Winther

As far as MMA or career-wise?

Scott Williams

Both.

Bobby Winther

Cool.

Scott Williams

As a SEAL and as an MMA fighter, what's next?

Bobby Winther

Yeah. So, I'm extremely fortunate that the Navy allows me to fight and I'm actually about to move over to the outreach program from being a combative instructor to the outreach program out here. And, we're going to go to local tournaments or tournaments around the country too and I'll be competing at them and wherever I'm fighting, we'll be able to do the outreach there. So that's awesome. And then as far as my career for Nogi grappling and MMA goes I'm looking to just try to break through on the 80 CC circuit and essentially that's like the Olympics for jujitsu on the private side. It's not really, it’s kind of hard to describe, but that's the easiest comparison I can give to people. You must qualify for the tournament through trials. And then once you win the trials, you go to the tournament, and you have to try to win the tournament.

Scott Williams

So, it’s like Kumite, right?

Bobby Winther

Kind of. But yeah, so that, that's called an 80 CC. And then, so I'm looking, to win that and make a name for myself in the grappling field. And then for MMA, the goal is for me to, I want to make it to the UFC, and I want to win a championship there as well.

Scott Williams

Wow.

Bobby Winther

Yeah.

Scott Williams

Where are you at in your SEAL career now?

Bobby Winther

So right now, I'm currently about nine and a half years in. And since I've been in combat for a couple of years now. And because of how the rotations work, I'm going to come over here and do them. And then by the time I'm done with the outreach, I'll either transition to the reserves if fighting is continually going the way I like in an upward trajectory, but if it's not, or I decided that fighting is just not what I want to do anymore, like as far as a profession, then back to a platoon for me. Because I think either way, when I'm done fighting, whether I'm a little older or not, I'll probably be going back to the platoon just cause I mean, they've given me this opportunity to see out a dream, not having to do with the military and kind of working with me to figure out like how we can work with each other to make it work. So, I mean, I'm just super grateful for it and I don't take it for granted. And I don't want to misspeak or misrepresent a community, by saying like, oh yeah, like war is all about X, Y, and Z. I've only done non-combat deployments. I got a chance to learn and teach about war and do my fundamental form of warfare in the cage. But after that, all that's done, probably back to the platoons for me.

Scott Williams

Yeah. Oh, and most people don't know that we have two reserve SEAL teams.

Bobby Winther

Oh yeah. That's right.

Scott Williams

One on the East Coast and one on the West Coast. Um, we don't advertise it a lot and it's not something you can get to as a non-SEAL. Like you've got to be an active-duty SEAL first, do your time. Then you can elect to go into a reserve SEAL team, but you can't be a reservist first and then try to lat over into a reserve SEAL team. You have got to come here. You have got to go through the BUD/S. You have got to do active tours. And then after that, you have the opportunity, and you found out about that as an option with active duty, which is awesome.

Bobby Winther

Yeah, because I think a lot of guys, myself included, feel that this is something you've spent a good deal of your life doing and it's kind of hard to walk away, like even if you're got a good job teed up and like you're good, you've done everything great in your career. You've always, I think everyone you talk to just, they still have that hesitancy of walking away from something they've done most of their lives. Like I grew up in the teams. I’m 27 now and I joined when I was 17. So, my entire adult life has been this. So, I think personally for me, and a lot of other guys may feel this way. It's like having the reserves as an option to be able to just keep my foot in the door and affiliated to the community in some way or form, like still allows you to breeze a little, like, all right, I can go chase some ambitions in the, in the real world. And then hey, if I want to come back to the military side, I have my foot in the door where I can go back if I want to, or just do my one weekend a month.

Scott Williams

They call those guys up all the time.

Bobby Winther

Like all the time.

Scott Williams

Yeah. There's always a reserve augment going out with the teams, where there might be a shortfall or something. And so those guys still get plenty of opportunities to go deploy if they want to. And if you were, let's say you were getting ready to get out and you were like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to stick with the reserves. The reserve SEAL teams just to keep my foot in. Um, what would your day job be?

Bobby Winther

Fighting for me. I would try to keep my career as fighting, but also, because of the skills I've developed in the military it could go a bunch of different ways. Like maybe we figure out a way to get combatives out to some of these local law enforcement areas like local police departments, maybe border patrol, SWAT, whatever Homeland Security entity would like training, maybe that could be a good way of getting your foot in the door that way. And for me, it's combatives. That's just kind of, just where my life has always been and always will be, but like, I think for any of the other SEALs, that aren't super into combatives there's a ton of things in our job that translate into the law enforcement sector. Where you can either be a law enforcement officer or you can go ahead and help them train for their things.

Scott Williams

You've been in for 10 years. So, you've seen some guys get out. What kind of jobs are they getting?

Bobby Winther

Uh, so some people are doing things like that. A lot of guys that I know have gotten their MBAs and are off into some high-end business jobs and they're doing very successful for themselves. So, there's kind of a lot of jobs like that. Um, and honestly, it's kind of hard because you can kind of do whatever you want. I think a lot of people, a lot of businesses outside when you're transitioning out are very excited to get SEAL because I think they know what they're getting. They're getting someone who works hard, who's very dedicated to what they want to do, and who can work in a team-based environment. So, for businesses like that's easy for them. And, leadership positions too. That's like, if they need a manager, they probably know that they can fast track that SEAL like soon after whatever grad school they do or whatever undergrad they do into whatever business field that they want to. So, the world's kind of their oyster, you know, it's kind of great. I have a friend who's a SEAL right now. He's going to go put in for his officer package and he wants to go be a fighter pilot and maybe like go do some crazy things. I'm like, so the world's your oyster. That's a completely different route. He's staying in the military, but he could do something similar in the private sector for that too. So, there's just so many cool things that I've seen like creativity, many people like doing jobs, and some are just content to chill. Like I've only done it for 10 years. Some of these guys have done 20 years and they're like, I'm cool. I'm good. Like they can retire now. They can have some passive income coming through and maybe they get a job that's just something that just brings extra money in too, and they get to enjoy their families a little bit more too.

Scott Williams

Yeah. I think that about covers it for today. We got to run along here. We're starting to run out of time here. Bobby Winther, MMA fighter, Navy SEAL. Appreciate you being on the show today.

Bobby Winther

Cool. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Scott Williams

And this was ‘The Only Easy Day Was Yesterday’. I'm Scott Williams. Until the next time...